Do your “band-aids” or bandages have indications of PFAS “forever chemicals” inside the absorbent pad or adhesive flaps? This is exactly what the Mamavation community asked us and we had no idea, so we started testing different bandage products to find out. Mamavation sent several types of bandages off to an EPA-certified lab to ascertain whether consumers were being exposed to PFAS when they were bandaging up open wounds. You’ve trusted Mamavation to bring you topics like salt products safe from heavy metals, safest cookware, and best water purification systems to get out PFAS “forever chemicals,” now join us for our latest consumer study on bandages for wound care.
Disclosure: This consumer study is released in partnership with Environmental Health News. Scientific reviews were performed by (1) Terrence Collins, Teresa Heinz Professor of Green Chemistry & Director of the Institute for Green Sciences at Carnegie Mellon University, & (2) Linda S. Birnbaum, Scientist Emeritus and Former Director of the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences and National Toxicology Program & Scholar at Residence at Duke University, North Carolina University, & Yale University. This post was medically reviewed by Sondra Strand, RN, BSN, PHN. Donations were provided by Environmental Health News and Mamavation community members. Note that Mamavation has only “spot-checked” the industry and thus we cannot make predictions about brands and products that we have not tested. Products and manufacturing aides can change without notice so buyer beware. Affiliate links from this post are mostly to Amazon where Mamavation earns a small portion of that sale. Mamavation uses affiliate revenue and ad revenue from Mamavation.com to pay for testing and fund other consumer investigations in the future. You can also give a tax-deductible donation to our consumer studies here through Environmental Health Sciences. Thank you for supporting Mamavation! Copyright © 2024 Mamavation — All Rights Reserved
Table of Contents
Mamavation Laboratory Finds Indications of PFAS “Forever Chemicals” in Popular Bandage Brands like “Band-Aid”
Mamavation’s EPA-certified laboratory found indications of PFAS “forever chemicals” after analyzing popular bandages on the market today. PFAS are per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances that have been used for many decades as stain-resistant, oil-resistant, grease-resistant, & water-resistant chemicals in commerce. From our vantage point, it looks as if some brands in the bandage industry are using PFAS for their waterproof qualities.
PFAS are found in many other areas of our homes with some examples being cookware, makeup, drinking water, contact lenses & dental floss. These chemicals are linked to serious health effects, which we will discuss later. Because PFAS are so toxic, Mamavation has commissioned our own scientific studies on indications of PFAS in products to make recommendations for bandages using PFAS-free materials. Read Mamavation’s articles (see below) on these products to find which brands are organic-fluorine-free.
For this consumer study, Mamavation sent 40 bandages from 18 brands to an EPA-certified laboratory looking for indications of toxic PFAS “forever chemicals.” Here’s what we found:
- 65% of total bandages tested had indications of PFAS “forever chemicals.” 26 detections out of 40 bandages tested had organic fluorine above 10 parts per million (ppm) according to our lab,
- 63% of bandages marketed to People of Color with black & brown skin tones had indications of PFAS “forever chemicals.” That’s 10 detections out of 16 bandages tested had organic fluorine above 10 ppm according to our lab.
- Ranges of organic fluorine, a marker for PFAS, were from 11 ppm to 328 ppm.
Linda Birnbaum, Scientist Emeritus and Former Director of the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences and National Toxicology Program & Scholar in Residence at Duke University, and Adjunct Professor at both University of North Carolina, & Yale University had this to say: “Because bandages are placed upon open wounds, it’s troubling to learn that they may be also exposing children and adults to PFAS. It’s obvious from the data that PFAS are not needed for wound care, so it’s important that the industry remove their presence to protect the public from PFAS and opt instead for PFAS-free materials.”
PFAS “Forever Chemicals” Have Problematic Health Effects
PFAS “forever chemicals” are problematic for human health and the environment. They are considered ubiquitous, persistent, and toxic. In fact, many of these PFAS chemicals can last for years or decades in our bodies. The health effects from exposure to PFAS on open wounds are unknown, but this would be a unique way for them to easily get into our bodies. It’s also unknown what happens when PFAS get absorbed into our tissues and travels around in our bodies. However, we do know that these areas can be vulnerable to toxic chemicals like PFAS “forever chemicals” in general. Therefore, it’s imperative to reduce the amount of PFAS you are exposed to from food, water, and consumer products like bandages. Mamavation is dedicated to helping you do that when you are shopping for bandages.
Here are some of the health effects associated with different PFAS “forever chemicals:”
- Reduction in immunity
- Reduced vaccination response
- Increased risk of allergies & asthma in young children
- Affected growth, learning, and behavior of infants and older children
- Increase cholesterol levels
- Metabolic diseases like obesity & diabetes
- Cardiovascular disease
- Lowered a woman’s chance of getting pregnant
- Lowered male fertility
- Increased risk of kidney & testicular cancers
- Causes endocrine disruption
- Disrupted normal thyroid function
- Increases risk of acute lymphoblastic leukemia in children
It’s also very clear based on biomonitoring evidence from the Center for Disease Control (CDC) that PFAS are in all Americans. Therefore, these exposures can harm most Americans.
How Are PFAS Finding Their Way Into Bandages?
An adhesive bandage is typically a flexible sheet of material with an absorbent pad in the middle and adhesive attached to sides that can be affixed on the skin to catch blood & serum and prevent anything from seeping into an open wound. The absorbent pad is placed against the open wound and the overlapping edges stick to the skin. They are generally sealed in a package and come in a variety of sizes and shapes.
We already know that the medical industry has long been using PFAS “forever chemicals” in products like “catheters, stents, and needles, as well as transdermal patches that are used for medicine delivery” according to 3M. 3M has announced they will no longer be in the PFAS business as of the end of 2025. We were able to confirm this by testing 3M medical tape. Our EPA-certified laboratory informed us their product was non-detect for PFAS indicators.
According to the Green Science Policy Institute, adhesives themselves sometimes do contain PFAS to increase wettability and penetration of the substrate, resulting in a stronger bond. Mamavation may have confirmed this by finding indications of PFAS “forever chemicals” in the adhesive sticky portion of several bandages. We were not able to separate the adhesive from the bandage in the lab, but we were able to find that the flaps had PFAS indicators present. We also found indications of PFAS inside the absorbent pads as well. We noticed that many transdermal patches use the same type of absorbent pad as we found in these popular bandages, so we believe this may be a similar type of product as used in bandages and thus made in a similar way. However, it’s impossible to know if your bandage has PFAS inside by just looking at them. This is why it was so important for us to test.
Terrence Collins, Teresa Heinz Professor of Green Chemistry & Director of the Institute for Green Sciences at Carnegie Mellon University had this to say: “It is discouraging to find yet another important product space, bandaids or bandages, containing PFAS compounds where transfers into users are conceivable. PFAS compounds deserve the “forever chemicals” name, such that when PFAS-containing bandaids and bandages are discarded post-use, the final resting places will be contaminated into the indefinite future. This is another Mamavation study serving beautifully to guide moms toward reducing PFAS exposures for their families and the wider world.”
Other Known Industries Using PFAS “Forever Chemicals”
PFAS chemicals have been used for decades to create stain resistance, water resistance, and grease-proof qualities in products to which they are added. If you’ve heard of coatings such as “Teflon” on cookware, fabrics made from “Gore-Tex” or treatments on carpets like STAINMASTER®, you’ve already heard about PFAS chemicals. Here’s more of what you may not have been aware of:
- Textiles & Fabrics: PFAS chemicals are very commonly found in product categories such as textiles & fabrics to create stain-resistance, water-resistance, or “sweat-wicking.” To help you here, Mamavation has tested athletic wear, sports bras, and period underwear. We’ve also conducted other consumer studies on bedding, children’s clothing, infant car seats, jackets, & raincoats.
- Food Packaging: In food packaging, they are used in popcorn bags, pizza boxes, fast food wrappers & canisters, and the flat dish on the bottom of cakes at the grocery store. Mamavation has also tested different butter wrappers, parchment paper brands, plastic-free straws, paper coffee filters, and cupcake liners for indications of PFAS.
- Personal Care Products: The beauty industry has been notoriously guilty of using PFAS to create a waterproof or long-lasting effect in makeup products. So Mamavation tested the most popular green beauty makeup brands, and we have also found some issues with period underwear, tampons, and sanitary pads. We also detected disturbingly high quantities of PFAS in dental floss
- Toilet Paper: Mamavation found indications of PFAS in 24% of the toilet paper we sent to the lab. However, we also found plenty of ‘best” and “better” brands. Go take a look!
- Cookware: Most “non-stick” cookware is coated with PFAS chemicals, including some stainless steel cookware, and small kitchen appliances like air fryers and rice cookers. Check out Mamavation’s investigation on cookware.
- Carpeting & Flooring: PFAS has also been used in carpeting & flooring. Do you remember StainMaster™ carpet? That was PFAS. However, not all carpet shows indications of PFAS. We recently tested one brand you can safely purchase. Mamavation also tested several bamboo flooring brands and found one brand that was free from PFAS.
- Furniture: Watch out for “stain-resistant” treatments on furniture. We have not done any testing in this category yet.
- Fire Fighting Foam: PFAS was used in firefighting foams and they have unfortunately been used extensively around military bases, airports, and fire-training stations. If you live close to a military base; airport, or fire-training station, check with your local water district to see if they have tested the water for PFAS.
- Metal Plating, Semiconductors, Lubrications, & Coating Additives: Lots of industrial applications of PFAS are used to keep equipment from rusting, getting overheated, or provide water-resistant, or grease-resistant qualities.
- Drinking Water: Sadly, there are lots of places around the United States and all over the world where drinking water is contaminated with PFAS. Most of these areas are by military bases, airports, and other industrial parks that used PFAS for firefighting or other such uses. Luckily, Mamavation has done an investigation of the best water filters to remove PFAS.
- Car Wax, Ski Wax, & Surfboard Wax: Yes, you guessed it. PFAS is used here for its grease & water-resistant qualities.
- Some Processed Food: Mamavation has found indications of PFAS inside pasta & tomato sauces, nut butters, cooking oils, and ketchup. We are presently working on other food categories.
- Supplements: Mamavation’s lab has found some issues with products like electrolytes.
- Baby & Kids Products: Mamavation’s lab has found organic fluorine in some disposable diapers & cloth diapers, strollers, & kids backpacks. Good news! We did not find indications of PFAS in several probiotics for children through testing.
Other Categories of Products Mamavation Has Tested for Indications of PFAS “Forever Chemicals”
Before we launch into the raw data from our lab, we wanted to remind you about all the other studies we have done on indications of PFAS “forever chemicals” inside the food and consumer products you may bring into your home. Each one of these studies were performed in a similar fashion as this study with brands sent independently to the lab and the raw data of those labs presented at the bottom of the post.
- Soft Contact Lenses
- Green Beauty Makeup
- Lip Balm
- Deodorants
- Condoms & Lubricants
- Dental Floss
- Toilet Paper
- Period Underwear
- Tampons
- Sanitary Pads, Pantiliners, & Incontinence Pads
- Powdered Electrolytes
- Butter Wrappers
- Pasta & Tomato Sauces
- Nut Butters (Peanut butter, etc.)
- Cooking Oils (olive oil, almond oil, canola oil, etc)
- Ketchup
- Activewear (Yoga Pants)
- Sports Bras
- Parchment Paper
- Cupcake Liners
- Plastic-Free Straws
- Fast Food Packaging
- Children’s Probiotics
- Kids’ Backpacks
- Baby Strollers
Mamavation’s Investigation of Bandages & Indications of PFAS “Forever Chemicals”
Bandages were purchased & donated from community members between November 2022 and February 2024 from either Walmart, CVS, Rite Aid, Target, or from Amazon. A few additional products were donated by the brands themselves, but unfortunately, they all had detections so we made sure to include them as well. Each product was recorded in our database and then sent directly to the lab within its original packaging. For most products we were able to test both the absorbent pad and adhesive flaps, but close to the end we ran out of funds and were only able to test one part if there was a detection. However, any brand that was categorized as “best” had both parts tested and confirmed as non-detect. We also included one medical tape product.
Testing: Mamavation’s EPA-certified laboratory uses marker testing to identify the potential presence of PFAS “forever chemicals” in bandages. Organic fluorine is a marker for PFAS because all PFAS chemicals are carbon-based compounds that contain fluorine. The specific lab method used to test for total fluorine was the Determination of Total Fluorine by Oxygen Flask Combustion and Ion-Selective Electrode. If total fluorine was observed at a detection level of 10 ppm or greater, the lab did the Determination of free Fluoride Ion in the product by Ion-Selective Electrode and then subtracted that from the Total Fluorine to determine the amount of organic fluorine. This marker testing is likely to show the presence of PFAS. Organic fluorine can also capture other fluoropolymers, pharmaceuticals, and common hydrofluorocarbon refrigerants, such as 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane (commonly known as R-134a) and 2,3,3,3-tetrafluoropropene (commonly known as HFO-1234yf), which are all also PFAS. None of which you want around your food, or personal care products like bandages!
Scott Belcher, Ph.D. & Associate Professor with the Center for Environmental & Health Effects of PFAS at North Carolina State University says “fluoropolymers, such as polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE), are extremely common forms of PFAS that could be contributing to the organic fluorine found in bandages. Methods used for detecting individual PFAS, such as PFOA or GenX, cannot directly identify PTFE. However, the analysis of total organic fluorine (TOF) does account for all PFAS contaminants in bandages, including PTFE. Therefore, this method of testing serves as a good ‘spot-check’ of consumer products.”
Raw Data From Mamavation’s Bandage Consumer Study
Not Our Favorite Bandages
These products were sent off to an EPA-certified laboratory and organic fluorine was detected above 100 ppm in either the absorbent pad or the adhesive flaps. * are all brands selling products marketed to People of Color with black and brown skin tones.
- Band-Aid Flexible Fabric Comfortable Protection Bandages (older sample that was likely 7-8 years old and not available in stores anymore) — 188 ppm organic fluorine on the absorbent pad. (Make note if you have older Band-Aids in your cabinet.)
- *Band-Aid OURTONE Flexible Fabric BR45 Bandages — 262 ppm organic fluorine on the absorbent pad.
- *Band-Aid OURTONE Flexible Fabric BR55 Bandages — 250 ppm organic fluorine on the absorbent pad.
- *Band-Aid OURTONE Flexible Fabric BR65 Bandages — 260 ppm organic fluorine on the absorbent pads and 374 ppm on the sticky flaps. 2nd product tested had 169 ppm on the absorbent pad.
- Care Science Antibacterial Flexible Fabric Adhesive Bandages — 328 ppm organic fluorine on the sticky flaps and non-detect organic fluorine on the absorbent pad.
- Curad Assorted Bandaids 4-Sided Seal — 140 ppm organic fluorine on the sticky flaps and non-detect on the absorbent pad.
- *CVS Health C60 Flexible Fabric Antibacterial Bandages — 201 ppm organic fluorine on the absorbent pad.
- *CVS Health C70 Flexible Fabric Sterile Bandages — 124 ppm organic fluorine on the absorbent pad and 272 ppm on the sticky flaps. 2nd product tested had 156 ppm organic fluorine in the absorbent pad.
- *CVS Health C80 Flexible Fabric Antibacterial Bandages — 128 ppm organic fluorine in the absorbent pad.
- Equate (Walmart) Flexible Fabric Bandages Antibacterial — 118 ppm organic fluorine on the absorbent pad and 165 ppm on the sticky flaps.
- *Equate (Walmart) SKIN TONE Antibacterial Bandages Flexible Fabric (darkest shade) — 197 ppm organic fluorine on the absorbent pad and 251 ppm on the sticky flaps. 2nd product tested was 183 ppm on the absorbent pad.
- *Equate (Walmart) SKIN TONE Antibacterial Bandages Flexible Fabric (medium to dark shade) — 112 ppm organic fluorine on the absorbent pad. (Matches black and brown skin tones)
- *Equate (Walmart) SKIN TONE Antibacterial Bandages Flexible Fabric (medium to light shade) — 120 ppm organic fluorine on the absorbent pad. (Matches black and brown skin tones)
- First Honey Manuka Bandages — 157 ppm organic fluorine on the sticky flaps and non-detect on the absorbent pad.
- Rite Aid First Aid Advanced Antibacterial Fabric Adhesive Bandages — 101 ppm organic fluorine on the absorbent pad and 181 parts per million (ppm) in the sticky flaps.
- Solimo (Amazon Brand) Flexible Fabric Adhesive Bandages — 104 ppm organic fluorine on the sticky flaps and non-detect on the absorbent pad.
- UP & UP (Target) Flexible Fabric Bandages — 256 ppm organic fluorine on the absorbent pad and 253 parts per million (ppm) on the sticky flaps.
Better Bandages
These bandages had less than 100 parts per million (ppm) of organic fluorine detected in either the absorbent pad or the adhesive flaps. * are all brands selling products marketed to People of Color with black and brown skin tones.
- Band-Aid Water Block Tough-Strips Waterproof Adhesive Bandages — 13 ppm organic fluorine in the sticky flaps and non-detect in the absorbent pad.
- *Browndages Bandages for Brown Skin All One Size — 14 ppm on the absorbent pad.
- CVS Health Gentle Fabric Hypoallergenic Bandages Large — 10 ppm organic fluorine on the absorbent pad and non-detect results on the sticky flaps.
- CVS Health Waterproof Adhesive Bandages — 20 ppm organic fluorine on the sticky flaps and non-detect on the absorbent pad.
- CVS Health Waterproof Heavy Duty Antibacterial Bandages — 11 ppm on the absorbent pad and non-detect on the sticky flaps.
- Dealmed Flexible Fabric Bandages — 99 ppm organic fluorine on the sticky flaps and non-detect on the absorbent pad.
- Dry See Thin Film Waterproof Dressing Pad with Wetness Indicator 001 2.75×2.5 — 11 ppm organic fluorine on absorbent pad
- Dry See Thin Film Waterproof Dressing Pad with Wetness Indicator 007 larger one 4.6×4 — 12 ppm organic fluorine on absorbent pad
- Rite Aid Smart-Flex Sterile Bandages — 11 ppm in the absorbent pad and non-detect in the sticky flaps.
Best Bandages
These bandages had NO detections of organic fluorine in both their absorbent pads and adhesive flaps. The detection limit of this testing was 10 ppm. * are all brands selling products marketed to People of Color with black and brown skin tones.
- 3M Micropore Surgical/Medical Tape — non-detect organic fluorine
- All Terrain Neon Kids Bandages — non-detect organic fluorine in the absorbent pad and sticky flaps of bandage.
- Band-Aid Hello Kitty Assorted Adhesive Bandages — non-detect organic fluorine in the absorbent pad and sticky flaps of bandage.
- CVS Sterile Manuka Honey Sports Bandages — non-detect organic fluorine in the absorbent pad and sticky flaps of bandage.
- FEBU Organic Bamboo Strip Bandages — non-detect organic fluorine on both absorbent pad and sticky flaps of bandages.
- Patch Bamboo Bandages for Kids with Coconut Oil — non-detect organic fluorine on both absorbent pad and sticky flaps of bandages. (Use discount code “mamavation” for 10% off products!)
- *TRU COLOUR Skin Tone Bandages Diversity in Healing (olive) — non-detect organic fluorine in the absorbent pad, non-detect organic fluorine in sticky flaps of bandage.
- *TRU COLOUR Skin Tone Bandages Diversity in Healing (dark brown) — non-detect organic fluorine in the absorbent pad, non-detect organic fluorine in sticky flaps of bandage.
- *TRU COLOUR Skin Tone Bandages Diversity in Healing (brown black) — non-detect organic fluorine in the absorbent pad, non-detect organic fluorine in sticky flaps of bandage.
- *Trutone Skin Tone Adhesive Bandages Dark Brown — non-detect organic fluorine in the absorbent pad, non-detect organic fluorine in sticky flaps of bandage.
- *Trutone Skin Tone Adhesive Bandages Brown — non-detect organic fluorine in the absorbent pad, non-detect organic fluorine in sticky flaps of bandage.
- *Trutone Skin Tone Adhesive Bandages Olive — non-detect organic fluorine in the absorbent pad, non-detect organic fluorine in sticky flaps of bandage.
- Welly Good Vibes Bravery Badges — non-detect organic fluorine on both absorbent pad and sticky flaps of bandages.
- Welly Waterproof Bravery Assorted Waterproof Bandages — non-detect organic fluorine on both absorbent pad and sticky flaps of bandages.
Blob Opera
This is, in my opinion, one of the best posts that you have made. Your work is quite outstanding in both quality and quantity. I am grateful to you for it.
Ofir Karo
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Sharon Hagan
Firsthoney responded to their bandages having pfas and sent them to be tested by two different labs in response which I think is very responsible of them – both labs indicated 0 trace on PFAS. I think this list needs to be updated or firsthoney bandages need to be retested on your end because their pads were already non detect and their flaps also for them was non detect on their end. I would try to support companies that are always aiming to do the right thing and not put them on the list with the companies that will NEVER care about our health. Please look into them again!
Rania
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musicianmare
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slice masters
Carolyn Watson, that is quite true. Leah will be for sure!
Dave C.
That’s it… I’m 68 and I’m switching to the children’s dinosaur bandages…lol When people ask why? That will be my opportunity to lead them to your website for more info.
I also noticed that some bandages of the SAME brand had zero PFAS on the “pad” and some PFAS on the sticky tape and the next product of the SAME brand had PFAS on the pad and zero on the sticky tape! That brand should combine the two different brands to end up with a ZERO PFAS product!!
Maybe switching to a liquid (brush applied) bandaid might be a solution but even that will probably have PFAS in the liquid. That would be great to have those products tested as an alternate choice.
Also, if the bandage is only being used for a quick stoppage of the blood flow (as in a shot), maybe just take the bandage off in a few minutes to reduce the PFAS risk?
GREAT article!! A real eye opener!! Thank you to all of those involved in presenting these facts!!
L
Thank you for all your work on this! I was wondering if the current “Band-Aid Brand Flexible Fabric Adhesive Bandages” have been tested too. In the article I only find test results for “Band-Aid Flexible Fabric Comfortable Protection Bandages (older sample that was likely 7-8 years old and not available in stores anymore)”. This info is helpful in case we still have some left overs but since they might not be currently available in the stores, it will be helpful to know if the newer versions are safer. Some companies are changing the materials of their products and what has been used 7-8 years ago might not be the same now.
Caroline Longford
I’m wondering the same as I’ve had allergic reactions to so many wound coverings but not from these or the skin flex, but to most 3M products so they’re not an option.
Suzanne Hanf
Will a more extensive test be completed for ALL bandage brands. I am a childcare and we as most school systems use School Health brand. I would like to feel comfortable that the majority of bandages that are going on children during the school day are safe.
Jen
What about Frownies? So many of my friends are using them!
Sara Gordon
What about All Terrain’s normal bandaids … non neon!
Marthe Schulwolf
Forgot to mention something that struck me as odd. The CVS Health Waterproof Heavy Duty Antibacterial came out much better than the CVS Flexible Fabric ones (which are not waterproof). Seems weird, doesn’t it? I have both kinds – will hold on to the waterproof ones and get rid of the others…
Marthe Schulwolf
Thank you so much for this!!! I haven’t been online much lately, but saw your email about this report. So important… Just looked and we had all of the “not our favorite” CVS ones… Wish you’d been able to check out Nexcare (have some of those as well). I’m going to get the ones on the best list!!! Thank you – you’re amazing! THis one is just so important… It is so very disturbing when things that are supposed to keep us safe do the opposite…
Anonymous
THANK YOU!!!! truly important work !! And ways for us to still buy consumer products but more safely. You are doing exceptional work for society
Mike
What about the brands used by doctors and clinics? Coverlet and All Medical. Amazon sells them too. As bandages, they work the best.
Alyssa
What about All Terrain Fabric Bandages and their waterproof bandages?
Marla
Thank you!! I’ll be removing the absorbant pad and replacing with a gauze pad for the remaining flexible fabric bandaids that I have before each use. Bought a huge pack of them on Amazon. Happy to hear my Welly’s are safe! We need to start holding these companies accountable, this is absolutely not right!
Leon
What about Elastoplast?
Rea
Hi!
Would it be safe to say the true tone in the beige color would have the same outcome as the other colors?
Thank you!
Donna Taylor
That’s what I was wondering!
Cassandra Clavien
Excellent information. So glad i use those welly ones and patch bamboo 🙂 shame they cost so much more but I guess you get what you pay for!
Carolyn Watson
Thank you again for your testing of all these products!! You will be known as a “health and life saver”.
Debbie
That’s so true, Carolyn Watson, Leah certainly will be!!
Teri
Why no Curad?
kkfornec
Did any of the other Welly prints (i.e. “Dino”) test well or only the two listed?
Anonymous
What about regular “PATCH” bamboo bandages, not for kids?